I THINK I'M GONNA SIGN OFF.....

[Border Collie]

Thank you, Susan, for responding. I was figuring you had already signed off. I agree that you don't need to "defend" yourself. I was more worried about everyone calling someone a good breeder and not qualifying what makes one. Now that we have your philosophy firsthand, everyone can judge for themselves.

I will agree to disagree with your statement of "but i am also, along w/ a breeder of 20+ yrs that i have been working w/, smart enuff to know that if the Border is bred and sold only as a working dog, the breed will be on its way out as there are just not that many (and it is getting fewer) working farms anymore---so, breed for the integrity of the Border w/ the understanding that this is what makes them the top agility/flyball/frisbee dogs they can be....." because it implies that because I don't agree with your theory, that I am stupid, although I know that wasn't your intention. I don't think I understand how you breed for the integrity of the breed, yet believe that by doing so, the breed will be on its way out.

I am interested in the theory behind goose dog work. I know it differs quite a bit from working livestock. I have dogs that are natural gatherers, and some that are natural drivers. Which would make better prospects for goosedog work? Does training on geese then tranlate easily when you put those same dogs on stock?

Jodi

[coileangra]

Border Collie, what i meant by that statement is that we (people) need to breed for the brains, drive and heart that the working Border has always been bred for but keep in mind that there is more than just a "working" dog there.....there just isn't enuff ranchers anymore to keep the breed going solely for that purpose but it's that purpose that makes it excel at all that it does do, be it agility, flyball, frisbee dog, SAR, etc.....the few i've seen bred for the conformation ring don't have that heart, drive and (to a degree) brains....

as goosers, we work to get the geese to stay off the parks and business properties that hire us to do so....our dogs work more along the "driver" aspect, as the geese tend to fly away b/4 the dogs can get to them....but when they get on the water (ponds) and the geese break up into groups, the dogs will try to gather them together (bring the smaller group/s to the larger group) to bring to us.....needless to say, the geese tend to fly off the water, also, and then they have nothing left .....but, Tir (my mama dog) has been tested on sheep as well and did quite well....w/ training (and the sheep to work her on) she would most likely be an excellent sheep/cattle dog....we haven't had the chance to try daddy on sheep, yet, but soon......

[Border Collie]

Once again, I will have to agree to disagree with you. I live in the Pacific Northwest, and there is plenty need here for working dogs for real ranchers and farmers, not to mention those that like to trial. There is no way to breed for working ability without first working the parents to a very high level on livestock. There is a common notion that goosedog work is for failed stockdogs, but they seem to do just fine helping out on a golf course where all they need to do is chase off the birds. I own a small ranch with a small flock of sheep, and I wouldn't go to a goosedog breeder any quicker than I'd go to a conformation breeder if I needed a dog to work my ranch. So talking about preserving the working dog by proving its parents on birds, and having had the dog "tested" on sheep, falls on deaf ears with me. But that's my opinion.

w/ training (and the sheep to work her on) she would most likely be an excellent sheep/cattle dog....

The only way to know whether or not a dog will be an excellent sheep/cattle dog is to work the dog to a very high level on cattle/sheep. It's like me claiming that I'd be the next great president if only I could get to go to college ... and then insert the regular mantra here ... money ... too far to go on a weekly basis ... no good trainers in the area ... etc.

we haven't had the chance to try daddy on sheep, yet, but soon......

This is a very common excuse, and one I'm not surprised was used here, unfortunately.

But again, I appreciate you speaking up and talking to us about your breeding philosophy. Not everyone would. I appreciate that you care about the breed and are trying to do your best with it. Most tell me I'm very tunnel-visioned when it comes to working dogs, and that's okay with me. I'll be the first to tell you it's true.

Jodi

[coileangra]

I own a small ranch with a small flock of sheep, and I wouldn't go to a goosedog breeder any quicker than I'd go to a conformation breeder if I needed a dog to work my ranch.

Jodi

and, IMO, a small flock of sheep to work is no different then those birds mine drive off.....Tir's parents both work/ed 350+ head of cattle on a daily basis and i do wish that i had the same situation for Tir (or any of my dogs) but this is why i went w/ the breeder i did.....trialing is something i want to get into in the very near future, but again, i don't believe that that proves the worth of the animal, either.....

but, i'm not here to argue w/ anyone about it......

[sheepskin_border_collies]

Ok, I lied, one more thing LOL As a Stock Dog Trainer for 8 yrs, I understand what Susan is saying about the goosedog. IF a dog has it in him/her for working geese very well, then it has the WANT to work anything. Now that doesnt mean that it will make AS good as working dog to cattle as in for Sheep, Chickens, Geese, Kids Cause Cattle is a HOLE nother ballgame for Working dogs. Cause Cows fight back, BIG TIME. SO I think anyone should go bragging on their dogs, until two things have been done, ONE Work your dog on EVERYTHING Especially Cattle, and if he has the Grit to bring blood to cows nose and turn Her, and then have the gentleness to work geese,chickens nything like that then thats a good working dog, TWO if He or She can do that ANYWHERE not just on the grownd they are used to working on. But They have that Want bred in them, thats where it has to start. So Me if I was looking for a working pup right now, then I would put a Gooseherding right up there with Sheep or Cattle, just cause it has been trained it has that cammands, and it must be a very intence dog, Then I would go look at all the pups, wanting to see all parents work, and then go from there, I would not just put the Gooseherders down cause they only herd geese I would go look at them with the same frame of mind as I would all the rest. Ok well anyway, there ya go

[coileangra]

Sarah, check your PM's.....

[Border Collie]

SO I (don't) think anyone should go bragging on their dogs ...

...or breeding them ...

until two things have been done, ONE Work your dog on EVERYTHING Especially Cattle, and if he has the Grit to bring blood to cows nose and turn Her, and then have the gentleness to work geese,chickens nything like that then thats a good working dog, TWO if He or She can do that ANYWHERE not just on the ground they are used to working on.

I agree. Very well said.

Jodi

[LISAM]

I dont mean to get into this discussion, but a few years ago I was on this site daily when I got my first Border Collie which was a resuce.. Susan was the most help on the site with some of the most stupid questions I had to get answers for so anyone who is slamming Susan on here I dont think really has the right to at all.. This site use to be alot of fun people were always very kind never any rude comments to anyone. We all loved our dogs and yes we did brag alot, but that is what we did. and that was what was acceptable.

Hootch and Daisy's Mom
Lisa

[Aquarius89]

I dont mean to get into this discussion, but a few years ago I was on this site daily when I got my first Border Collie which was a resuce.. Susan was the most help on the site with some of the most stupid questions I had to get answers for so anyone who is slamming Susan on here I dont think really has the right to at all.. This site use to be alot of fun people were always very kind never any rude comments to anyone. We all loved our dogs and yes we did brag alot, but that is what we did. and that was what was acceptable.

Hootch and Daisy's Mom
Lisa

LONG TIME NO SEE!!!!!!!

[coileangra]

hi, Lisa, long time, no hear.....how are those kids doing?