Need Help With Lunging Attacks

[bcfamily]

I'm new to the site and in need of some guidance. We have recently adopted a BC puppy (approx. 6 mts old ) from the shelter. He's a very smart pup and has learned many obedience commands in a short amount of time. The problem I am having with him lately is his dominance tendencies. Recently, while out on a walk, he will spontaneously lunge at the person walking him...often grabbing a piece of clothing in his mouth before the walker can react and pull him away. He growls while lunging and it usually lasts for about 10 sec. He often does it with my children but within the last couple of days, has started doing that to me. How I have been handling him when he lunged would be to pull him away from me, out of lunge range, until he appeared calm. If he then attempted to lunge again I would then lay him down on him side until he stopped trying to bite and appeared calm. Once calm, he would get up and we can continue our walk. Is the lunging a way of telling me that he wants to play, needs to run and get more energy out? Or is it a sign of dominance?

I've read about establishing yourself as the pack leader and have instructed my kids to do the same. We all take turns feeding him, playing with him and also walking him. We walk him 2-3 times a day and also play fetch with him on a daily basis. My oldest is even taking our dog to puppy obedience classes. I feel that we are trying to do everything right to be pack leaders, but obviously we are not succeeding in my BC's mind. Are there any other things we can do to establish ourselves as higher than him in the pack order?

[dinah_kay]

I am not a big fan of CM methods. While I think parts of his methods have their place, I get worried when I hear about owner's dominating their dogs or being their "pack leaders."That said, has your trainer noticed this behavior? That would be the first place I would go for help, since the behavior you posted sounds very serious. Is he merely trying to "herd" people (which is common, but doesn't usually include growling) or is he possibly fearful (puppies go through a fearful period?) It is hard to tell without seeing the behavior first hand, but no matter what I would bring this behavior to your trainer's attention ASAP so they can see what is really going on.

[starfish]

Well, I agree with Dinah about the "pack leader" myth and about Caesar Milan's outdated methods. Dogs don't need to be dominated to be well behaved. Do they need rules and boundaries? Definitely. But, thinking you have to establish yourself (or your children) as "pack leaders" using physical force is not the way to approach this. Doing the Caesar Milan-endorsed "alpha roll" is not a good idea either and it is truly outdated thinking. You definitely don't want to be encouraging your children to force your dog on his side and hold him there until he "calms down" (i.e., submits). That is a good way to get bit by a scared dog that doesn't understand why it is being manhandled.

Without seeing the behavior myself, it's difficult to know exactly what the intent of the puppy's behavior is. But, it sounds to me like he is trying to get whoever is walking him to try and play with him. If he grabs some clothing, does he then try to play tug with it? You say that he growls when he does this. Does he freeze, tighten his lips, put his ears back and growl in an aggressive manner? Or, is he growling and lunging and maybe barking in a playful manner (wagging his tail, no tense look on his face, ears not pinned back)? Have you noticed if there is something that triggers the behavior (e.g., another person or dog walking down the street)? If so, it could be displacement behavior born out of frustration. But, it didn't really sound like this is what you were describing. Six months old is about the age where our previously sweet, innocent little puppies start to turn into rebellious teenagers. They push boundaries, seem to forget any previous training, and suffer from selective hearing.

If this is just rambunctious puppy behavior, which is what it sounded like, then you need to teach an incompatible behavior that you will have him do whenever he decides to lunge. You might teach your dog a "sit," if you haven't already. If your dog lunges while on a walk, you could stop, tell him "no" or "leave it" or "off" or whatever command you want to use. Tell him to sit and when he is in a calm sit, give him a reward. The reward could be a treat, or a toy, or a short session of tug. Then, continue on your walk. If your dog tries it again, repeat the above. If you dog simply will not stop lunging, calmly turn around, go home and end the walk. He'll learn pretty quickly that lunging and nipping results in the loss of his walk, but being calm with all four feet on the ground results in good things.

You can establish rules and leadership without having to "show your dog who's boss." You might want to do a little research on the "Nothing in Life is Free" approach to training. It's a very effective training protocol that will quickly have your puppy learning that good behavior results in good things coming his way. And no force or "dominance" needed. You and your children will build a much better bond with your puppy born out of respect and trust. Good luck!

[Seelie Fey]

Pay close attention to what might be going on immediately before a lunging episode - did a car or bicycle just go by? Maybe a skateboard? Did your puppy see another puppy? A cat? A little noisy child? Has he just been pulled back on the leash? Herding dogs are notorious for "redirecting," where there is something terribly stimulating that they can't get to so they nip or lunge at what they can get to. Moving things, like passing cars, are terribly stimulating. If you get locked into a physical battle for dominance with the dog during something like this, you are just upping the adrenelyne rush and the puppy's behaviour will get worse.

So, watch, very intently, to see what is triggering this. Then, once you know, in the fraction of a second that you have before the puppy lunges, distract and redirect him in some fashion: Change directions, practice an emergency down, make him sit or shake hands, speed up, slow down, something to break the thought pattern and keep the dog interacting with you in a more acceptable way. Keep treats, if he's treat motivated, with you, or a loved toy. Keep calm - no waving, jerking, squealing, scolding.

The one good thing you can pull from Cesar Milan is that he watches and is very aware of what the dog is doing, noticing, and thinking, and he intervenes before the dog gets commited to an inappropriate course of action. If you can cultivate a similar level of awareness and early intervention, then you will be much more likely to succeed. But, forget the packleader stuff. You aren't a dog, and it's unacceptable for your dog to relate to you like he does another dog.

But, all we can do is guess. Talk to your trainer. JMHO

[RodeosMom]

Oh give me a break, did a car or bicycle go by. Not to antagonize but hell................You have to establish dominance with this and all breeds if you intend to raise a good citizen. When they are approx 4 months to any age older, get your dog upside down, belly up, and *very gently* but *very firmly* look into their eyes and tell them in no uncertain terms that YOU are the boss. **** Never hit!!!**** You just have to make eye contact while you firmly state your case. Dogs, esp BCs want to know who is in charge. It is their instinct to HERD ---and if you don't lay down the law they look at you and the kids and the cats and other dogs as things to herd, their minions. You MUST establish dominance so you can TEACH them which things are okay to herd. As Barney Fife said, NIP IT! NIP IT! NIP IN THE BUD.

I expect to get a lot of grief about this. But I stand by it. I've never laid a hand on my dog other than to give her a massage, bathe her, cuddle her, and I did stand over her when she was upside down and a complete nut job at 4 months old, and I did it again when she was 8 months old and needed a reminder. I never had to do it again. This dog loves me, will follow me anywhere without a leash, and it's (I believe) because she understands that I'm in charge. SOMEONE has to be the boss, is all I'm sayin'. Dogs and children love knowing what is expected of them. BCs I think, very especially, need to know what is expected of them. No?

Kir (RPs mom)

[Seelie Fey]

Different point of view are a good thing. However, my opinion is that doing alpha rolls on 4 month old puppies as a matter of course is abuse.

I am not aware a a SINGLE study that validates dominance theory. Shaping and basic behaviorist theory has been proven over and over in rigorous, controlled studies. I have had dogs all of my life, of various breeds, some raised from puppies and some rescues. I have never had to alpha roll any of them as puppies, and they were well adjusted, peaceable, dogs. Even the monks who originally avocated alpha rolls have abandoned that philosophy. Aversion can be taught, but you have to associate it with the specific stimulus you want the dog to avoid. I do not think randomly frightening and intimidating a reactive dog leads to predictable, reliable, safe behavior. If you want a dog to behave a certain way, you have to teach it.

However, we all have our points of view. If they are all the same, a discussion board is pointless. The original poster can consider the merits of our arguments and make their decision how to deal with this.

[joe]

The Alpha Roll is as outdated and archaic as stone knives and dinosaurs.

[RodeosMom]

This is a very serious issue but has a very simple solution. When things are getting a little bit dodgy, put that doggie on his back, stand over him, and look him in the eyes and YELL at him that YOU are the boss and QUIT doing that shit to my kid (insert name of thing/person/animal here). Then some hugs/kisses like it never happened. This dog needs discipline and it is not funny anymore, you need to ESTABLISH your dominance. Never, never hit. Never, never chase. Upside down, he will listen to you. Just make it very clear by the tone of your voice that you aren't kidding around. I know it seems harsh, but once you make it very clear who is the boss, you likely will not have any more problems.

[DrewBroadley]

That's fine to do, if you want suppression to handle the moment but not future moments, as well as adding to the anxiety of the dog not knowing if you're going to do this for other things. If you want shaping/conditioning of the behaviour then don't try and be dominant.

Remember, dominance is a sign of anxiety, it's not a sign of leadership. When dominance is shown, it's because there is stress and unrest in the pack.

[joe]

That's fine to do, if you want suppression to handle the moment but not future moments, as well as adding to the anxiety of the dog not knowing if you're going to do this for other things. If you want shaping/conditioning of the behaviour then don't try and be dominant.

Remember, dominance is a sign of anxiety, it's not a sign of leadership. When dominance is shown, it's because there is stress and unrest in the pack.

I completely agree and am a firm believer that the Alpha Roll is in the long term, useless.

[RodeosMom]

You know what, I'm just almost done. I think everyone has a unique situation. I know we all adore our dogs or we wouldn't be here. You can see my retraction about the "alpha roll" on a different thread (and I will put it below). RP and I are know oe'r the land as best buddies, constant companions. I was crying, could not figure out how to calm this 4-month-old puppy down, had rescued her from a shelter - while I was sitting in the waiting room after having toured the facility, all those sad faces and I needed a minute to process. While sitting there, some lady returned her after having her 2 days, said her kids didn't like her, and the whole time she was filling out the paperwork this puppy was pressing on my knee. I just stood up and said I'll take her! I had a 16-year-old Maltese at home, so what did I know? When I was in utter tears one day about a week later, someone I know who is a dog trainer told me to do the "alpha roll" but the way I described it sounds brutal and it wasn't like that at all. Please read below post:

Yeah, I hear ya. I didn't *want* to do the alpha roll thing. I had a very willful puppy and was crying and at my wit's end and someone suggested it to me, and it worked! So you know, you do what works! Rodeo isn't afraid of me - it was *never* about that. I just needed her to know that I was going to take over. She was so alone and had already been kicked out of one family because "the kids didn't like her" and so she was in a state of high anxiety, only 4 months old and was trying to be in charge of herself, totally understandable stuff! I wanted her to realize that now and forever I will do the heavy lifting, so now she can just lie down, breathe and be a doggie! She and I are like frick and frack, best of friends, can't see one without the other. I am working on sending a pic - am typing on my work puter and the pics are on the home puter. Hope you have an awesome weekend with your babies. Kirsten

[RodeosMom]

That's fine to do, if you want suppression to handle the moment but not future moments, as well as adding to the anxiety of the dog not knowing if you're going to do this for other things. If you want shaping/conditioning of the behaviour then don't try and be dominant.

Remember, dominance is a sign of anxiety, it's not a sign of leadership. When dominance is shown, it's because there is stress and unrest in the pack.

I completely agree and am a firm believer that the Alpha Roll is in the long term, useless.

I agree with you guys. Raising a BC, I've found, can be a learning process for both parties. I wasn't perfect. Yet somehow we figured it out. I also learned something in the last week just coming back on this board. I came off like I know everything and well, I don't really. I tried to apologize and I hope it's taken. I did somehow manage to raise the best dog I've ever seen - must have done something right - but I think probably I just have a keen doggie.

Best, Kirsten

[DrewBroadley]

(I'm no expert)

I should really give a bit of background on that last statement before saying what I said, that was bad of me.

The first thing I did when getting our BC-X was read Ceasar Milan's books and watch his TV show like a relgion, the way he explained it all made sense to me (he's a good marketer of methods). I watched about four series worth and took from the books and tv show what I could just to give myself headway on how I can calm my dog.

There were great aspects, his nose, eyes, ears phrase is still with me. His calm assertive is still with me, not too much the assertive in physical but mental. I use assertive as a reminder to think like a leader, not someone who isn't sure what cake to pick from the bakery window, I know what cake I want to pick before I get there. When you don't know what you want to do, why would someone look for you to be a leader ?

I've taken the rest as a grain of salt, and here's why:

I looked at his alpha roll he performed, and it seems pretty convincing. I've done similar before in my younger years to dogs that were getting too boystrious when they were puppies, and with my Labrador past it worked, for a dog brought up from puppy to adulthood, having correct social interactions, and all in the world was perfect. I decided to try it with my new adopted BC-X. Oh boy, did it make her go backwards, not only did it take a good 5-10min to "submit her", she skyrocketed in anxiety.

From the moment I started doing the alpha roll when she was acting up around dogs and other things, it caused her to get even more uneasy around dogs. She associated (remember this is how they work if you didn't know) dogs to having the alpha roll performed on her, which put her in a submissive state when she was fearful of other dogs. Due to lack of socialising, she didn't KNOW what she was meant to do around dogs and that the alpha roll was meant as the owner getting her to calm down and a sign to the other dog she's submissive. To her, it was me putting her into a position she had less chance defending herself in. This would cause her to be in a situation she didn't feel comfortable in, which in turn causes increased lack of confidence in the situation so of course she would build up more quickly to anxiety/fear around dogs expecting to have to perform a double back flip, to feet, then brace herself before she could even think about making an defensive move against a dog that might start attacking her. For all she knew, a dog wagging his tail, bowed down and playfully barking was the sign of a dog launching at her with teeth open and wanting to remove her jugular.

So, things got worse, I started hating walking the dog and feeling embarrassed around people in the neighbourhood. This is history, my dog still isn't perfect but I'm knocking down things slowly.

I've since decided to read all sorts of behavioural approaches (books, scientific papers, workshops etc.) and piece together what works for my situation. I'm no expert, remember this, but this is the reason why _I_ don't like the alpha roll when in context to Border Collies and behavioural issues.

I think the alpha roll is okay, if the dog is perfectly socialised, confident, showing no signs of anxiety/fear, and you need it to calm down when it's young as a VERY LAST RESORT, sure. But remember, when dogs signal they aren't happy they growl THEN show their teeth THEN go in for sorting them out. Did you try the human equivalent of these steps first before the alpha roll ? Because I would be anxious around you if I was doing something you didn't like and you put me into an alpha roll without any warning and yelled at me, I wouldn't know when I was doing good or bad. If you gave me a few signs before hand I know I was heading in the wrong direction and adjust accordingly.

For damaged goods dogs (signs of anxiety/fear, signs of being reactive), you really need to assess what works for you, and alpha roll is not a tool of that trade.

[RodeosMom]

Oh, mercy...this alpha roll thing has turned into such a big deal it was NOT in our family.
Drew, My dog and I lived alone with a little 16-year-old Maltese, Tucker. I made her go upside down only a couple times and only when we were alone. I feel like you guys are making me out to be some of of monster! It was an upside down girl with her belly getting rubbed and a firm voice (yes I said YELL in my original post but I really didn't do that) was just in a loving firm voice saying I'm in charge now, you can relax!

I may have made some mistakes in raising RP but in the alpha roll saved our relationship. I was following the advice of a seasoned dog trainer of hunter/retriever labs (my stepdad at the time). He turned out to be a jerk but I have to say things honesly did turn around for RP and me once I did that "alpha roll" thing. And I only had to do it one or two times and I HONESTLY believe the reason it worked is because she was just so anxious and unsure. She needed to know that I was going to be there for her and she could relax finally. It totally came out of a place of love.

I have seen some of Cesar Millan's ideas - I think he really is a "dog whisperer." I am not sure it is his "techniques" that make him in tune - he just has a way with dogs, seems to understand them, and I would say "same here." When I posted my orig messages, looking back on them I see, I came off gruff and like a know-it-all. I have apologized all over the place. It's unfortunate.
.

[joe]

I don't think anyone needs to apologize for using a certain technique, or defending that action. I don't agree with the Alpha Roll for a BC, and I don't like Caesar, but that's just me. If you have read "The Other End Of The Leash" that is more in tune with what I feel. We are all as different as our BC's and all have the approach we are comfortable with. What I of think is important is the open discussion of all of our ideas and methods. That's how we all learn and DOG knows I personally have a long way to go.