Molly attacks my other dog

[barkinlarkin]

I found this website because my vet told me about a rescue that I could, maybe, send my dog to....she also told me I should consider putting her to sleep. I'm both comforted to know that other people struggle with this, but I'm also scared that this is something that's not going to get better.
I have a soft spot in my heart for border collie mix breeds. I always tell people..."yes, they are crazy, but only for the first 10 years". I had some issues with my last 2 dogs that they out grew so I was hoping this was just a phase....but I'm losing hope.
I have a 13 year old border collie mix who seemed depressed after my other one died. I found what I thought was going to be the perfect companion for Sophie at the pound. Molly was 6 months old & had been returned to the shelter for what I assumed was people who didn't realize how much energy it took to own a border collie changing their minds.
At first there was the usual snarls & tussles...sophie usually dominating in the end, but it was over by the time you realized there was a fight. No one got injured. As Molly got older, the fights got more aggressive...you couldn't snap Molly out of the violent zone she was in. You had to kick her or hit her with something several times before she would break away. The fights are unpredictable, we can't figure out a trigger. One time my boyfriend said Molly was sleeping & woke up & crossed the room & attacked Sophie while she was sleeping. Other times you can see it is in response to the vacuum...but not always. I have never seen any food aggression. I don't think it happens when I'm not home (I dread to think of it, but I really am coming to terms with Sophie would most likely not still be alive if it did) but it happens sometimes in the backyard when I am in the house.
Most of the time they seem to get along...they even seem to play in the morning. I can throw the tennis ball & they can practically bash their heads together & there is no aggression. Sometimes there is 5 months in between attacks...sometimes its only days. Just when I think they hated each other, I would find them snuggled in the same bed in the morning.
I've taken Molly to 2 behaviorists...they both told me they didn't have much to offer me because there is no obvious trigger. One told me that even though they seemed calm during our assessment, she lost count of how many times Molly gave Sophie a "hard stare"...I never noticed this. I also now notice how Sophie is retreating to the bedroom when she comes in the house. Now that Molly has been on a tie down & has several off limits places in the house, we noticed Sophie is coming out more. I feel horrible that my sweet old lady dog has been living such a terrified life. She deserves to relax in her retirement.
So I thought we were finding a way to work this out (tie downs, more exercise, mind stimulating games for Molly) but now there have been 2 more fights. I kicked molly off of Sophie 2 times & she went back in at her before I finally separated them for good.
So, I took her to the vet to explore putting her on Prozac or something. That's when my Vet told me stories of people who struggled with the same problems & some of the awful outcomes. I trust my Vet, I don't think she would give up on my dog that easy. I think she just wanted to put all the cards on the table.
So, Molly is starting to take Klonopin, but I see this as a last resort. If this doesn't work, I don't know what else to do.
I'm hoping someone will write back & just give me some feedback. My heart is breaking because I LOVE this dog. Except for this crazy short she has in her brain, she is the sweetest, cutest, smartest, loving dog....

[ajones]

I am really sorry that you are having these serious problems, and I'm glad you have already taken steps to keep Molly and Sophie separated and, as a result, to give Sophie some space to relax and better enjoy her senior-hood.

Although I have been fortunate not to have to manage situations this severe, my initial thought is to keep Molly away from Sophie, period. Crate and rotate the dogs, for example, so that they do not have opportunities to interact--at all. I know this is a huge hassle and a big disruption to your household, but it sounds like--at this point, at least--it is also the only way you can be sure that Sophie will be safe. Therefore, I think you owe it to her to manage the situation this way while you decide what to do next.

It really concerns me that you describe such severe physical interventions to get Molly away from/off of Sophie, and I cannot imagine how terrifying each attack must be for Sophie to endure. I totally agree with you when you say "she deserves to relax in her retirement," and she clearly cannot do that if Molly has any physical access to her.

I look forward to seeing what our other members suggest.

[joe]

To me trust will always be the issue. Can you ever turn your back on Molly? Will she continue to attack your senior dog? And even if Molly is a veg on Klonopin is that going to work for Molly? And you?
I do agree your senior dog deserves not to be a stressed out mess in her senior years. And this will sound harsh to many here but I can tell you this without a doubt. If a dog enters my family and starts beating on Capp,( my eldest), or even Mozart & Roc, that dog will be re-homed without question.
Good Luck, I truly hope someone here has a workable solution for you,
Joe

[kgunther]

I too am very sorry to hear of your problem. I don't have any additional advice since I have never had to deal with this problem. But I did want to ask whether you had a complete physical done when you had Molly at the vet. In particular, did you have her thyroid checked? It is a long shot but sometimes if the thyroid is out of whack it can cause aggression.

Kristy

[barkinlarkin]

Thank you all so much for your replies. I am doing my best to keep the dogs separated (they have separate areas in the yard & tomorrow I'm putting up a more secure 8x10 kennel for Sophie (since she doesn't wander around as much as Molly). Molly is on Tie downs in the house. It's hard to keep them completely apart..like this morning I went to let Molly out to pee & Sophie came up to the door like "I gotta go too!!" How am I supposed to make one wait?

My vet didn't think any blood work would help, but thanks for the suggestion....I'll check EVERYTHING before I make any harsh decisions.

Molly is on day 2 of Klonopin...still pretty hyper, I don't see much difference. I also ordered a book that was suggested on this site.

I've decided to wait until Molly is on the meds for one month before I make any decisions. I'm going to keep trying other training things in the meantime too. I think my line in the sand will be if she is aggressive after a month passes & I've tried all of these things. It's so hard though.....I look at her & she has such a sweet face. It's hard to believe she has that in her. Ugh.

[ajones]

I'm really glad you are focusing on keeping Molly and Sophie separated, both indoors and out, while you sort out what's happening with Molly and try to get a handle on it. I just wanted to respond to this question:

It's hard to keep them completely apart..like this morning I went to let Molly out to pee & Sophie came up to the door like "I gotta go too!!" How am I supposed to make one wait?

Easy! One goes back to her area, where she is secured, while the other one goes outside for a few minutes. Then they rotate.

My impulse would be to let Sophie out first (since, being older, her bladder may need relief sooner). Then bring her in and put her safely in her area and let Molly out. It won't hurt Molly to wait a few extra minutes to pee, but it could very well hurt Sophie to be in the same area as Molly.

[Old_Dog]

I completely agree with Angie on this. crate the dogs alternately. It is not a punishment, it is a tool and in this case a way to keep them separate. I know this is the obvious point, but having to do this another year or two while Sophie lives out her life is not that big a deal. When they get that age we do a lot of things to keep our senior dogs happy and health.....so what's one more.

[joe]

Sorry to not agree but the "Keep them apart" is far from easy. First thing that comes to mind is Sophie. Was she crated a lot or does she have free range of the whole house? If so how is it fair to her, who's been there forever, to have to be crated because Molly has issues? My second thought goes back to trust. Even if this keep them apart until Sophie lives out her life can you do it 24/7? How do you leave the house? How do you turn your back on them? So you forget once and then what?
It all sounds good but to me is not very feasible or practical, or fair to the senior citizen here. Perhaps Molly is a built for an only dog household.
I am not trying to argue here, just voicing my opinion.
Joe

[barkinlarkin]

I really appreciate all opinions....actually you guys are just saying all the things that are running around in my head. Sophie has now been wandering around her area of the backyard holding my shoe...something she hasn't done since she was a puppy. I almost feel like she's a little lonely out there by herself...NOT that I'm ready to take a risk & put Molly near her, but it seems every scenario I can come up with has a bad side to it.

[barkinlarkin]

Just thought I'd post an update since all the other posts I saw about troubled dogs didn't really have an outcome to go by....

So, after about 2 weeks of being on Klonopin, we didn't see much change in Molly. I contacted another behaviorist- trainer who was surprisingly aggressive (said he would use the shock collar on her until she came to him on command, etc.) which I was not comfortable with. (It's amazing once you start shopping around how many different styles there are when it comes to training dogs).
Long story short, I remembered reading about a "dog rehabilitation" place nearby in our local paper. They were trying to save a dog that was destined for euthinasia in one of the local shelters. I looked them up & they evaluated Molly & I am happy to say that I think they are doing wonders with Molly.
They have a where house with a large outside area attached that they use for rehabilitation & doggie day care (they also have some "permanent residents" there). The dogs hang out in a "pack" sometimes up to something like 40 dogs. They have all learned to be calm around each other & they teach the other dogs that way too. I left Molly with the owner for 4 hours & she put a soft rubber muzzle on her. She said initially, she could see Molly's anxiety escalating & as they brought in more, larger dogs, she started snapping at them....but eventually learned to calm herself. Then she stayed off by herself for a bit away from the pack. Then they started moving the pack from the inside where house to the outside & back, and eventually Molly started following the pack. She said that was a good sign because it showed Molly wanted to learn to be in the pack. (She said some dogs never choose to follow the pack). I didn't get to see any of this because they didn't want Molly distracted by me, but when I went to pick her up they took me to an observing area with a one way glass where you can watch the dogs. It's like a 24hr fitness for dogs! There are dogs on treadmills, dogs resting, dogs playing....it's like doggie heaven!
Now, Molly goes 3 days a week & she is already playing (like a puppy, they tell me....not aggressive) & no longer wearing the muzzle! After a while, I will bring Sophie there too so they can watch Molly's behavior around her. We are still keeping them apart when we are not home & Molly is on a tie down most of the time in the house but they are together at times & we notice Molly is not so "in your face" with Sophie. By the way, I stopped giving Molly the medication before she started to going here at their request to see her natural behavior.

There is hope......

Look them up if you want....it's called Kings Kastle in Windsor or Cloverdale California. I think they are brilliant!

[Harley1979]

I have a weird thing going on with the Border Collie that came to our house early december. We have been taking care of him "Charlie " we call him, but he will not eat the food from a bowl we have for him, but rather goes to our female German Shepherd's bowl and eats her food and snaps at her. We obviously have to put a stop to this, and have offered him on here since he is not our dog. The weird part is he only does this when my wife pours the food for the two dogs.. When I pour it the Border Collie's food and the German Shepherd's food, he, the Border Collie eats out of his bowl and leaves the German Shepherd alone.. Sorry to drift from the subject posted, but I thought this was some similar behavior.. Really has me boggled ..

[barkinlarkin]

Even if it was off the subject....I'm glad you prompted me to get back to this site. First of all I would say you have hope because your dogs behavior is predictable...so I think you can work on it. Molly's behavior was out of the blue most of the time (or at least it was for us).

It was really interesting to go back & read my old emails....I thought I should give an update.

I sure sounded like I was full of hope back then...Molly was going to doggy day care & seemed to be making lots of progress. She was much calmer & there weren't any fights for months. We went on vacation & left her at the "rehab" for about 10 days of training too. We thought our problems were behind us.....
But we had people over for a BBQ one day it all went downhill. Molly had NEVER been aggressive to anyone or anything except Sophie....she loved having kids throw a ball for her & return it ....but, she went up to a kid & licked him and when he pushed her you could see the thing click over in her head & she went straight for Sophie & attached her. YES, you don't have to tell me how thankful I am that she didn't attack the kid...I swear we would never put a kid at risk....looking back on it, maybe we were stupid. BUT, we thought she was cured....AND we watched her very closely to see if she was looking anxious...which she never had been in the past around other people. You don't have to scold me.....I regret it now.
I was heartbroken....and then the next day, she attacked Sophie again. We took her to stay at the Dog rehab so we could gather our thoughts & figure out what to do. I felt like I was putting her to sleep. We met with the owner of Kings Kastle & through sobbing conversation, I made the decision to release her to their rescue where she would be evaluated & re-homed if they felt she was "re-habable" or they would euthanize her if they thought she was a danger. It was the best I could do for her.
Well, these people turned out to be horrible. We saw Molly's picture on their website as adoptable within, probably, a month of releasing her to them. Her description included statements like "due to human error, Molly has never been trained or socialized" and " with good training she will be able to find her forever home". ..even though they knew her entire history and all the things we did to help her. They didn't mention that she had been attending their facility for rehab for months when she continued to attack.
We demanded they take that statement down....which they did, but they also promised the owner would contact us....which she never did. We told them it was dangerous to not let people know her history. We didn't want someone else to go through what we went through either.....even though we wanted her to find a home. Well, we saw her on the "adopted" list later....I pray it has worked out for her & her new owners. Now I'm jaded & wondering if some of these rescues will say anything just to get a dog a home.
On the bright side.....Sophie is acting like she is 5 years younger without Molly around. Also, since we are a little gun shy about adopting our own forever pet, we are raising a Lab for Canine Companions....so maybe this will turn out to be something wonderful for more people than we hoped for.

[ajones]

Thank you for taking the time to update. I am very sorry to hear how things turned out for Molly, but I hope that other folks who find this thread will be able to learn important lessons from this series of events.

Friends of mine have raised dogs for CCI, and I know that is a great organization to be involved with. Their last dog, though, didn't pass one of the final rounds of testing, which meant they had the opportunity to adopt her and have a lovely, well trained companion of their own.

[barkinlarkin]

Thank you for responding! I just have to say that even though CCI is a great organization the beautiful Lab I am raising still doesn't pull on my heartstrings like a border collie does!